ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Comments and discussions about Adobe Photoshop
psf372aq3
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ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby psf372aq3 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:21 am

It would appear that your poll about readers reactions to Adobe's subscription scheme does not include too many active designers and artists. I am an active digital artist. For the first year I am paying $31+/month for all of their products and after that, it will be just under $50 per month. In my opinion, this is extremely reasonable for access to all of their products plus all updates and upgrades. I currently use Lightroom, Photoshop, and Illustrator regularly, that is, daily, and plan to use InDesign and Premiere in the near future. Reading graphics magazines that are aimed at designers and artists indicates a very positive response to the subscription scheme. Obviously, if a person is an occasional user of Adobe products, who in the past, did not regularly purchase the upgrades, then the subscription scheme is not appealing to that type of user. Adobe's purchase of TypeKit and Behance indicates that they are shifting their appeal to professional designers and artists, particularly those involved in website design and digital publishing. This indication is made more powerful by the elevation of executives of TypeKit and Behance to high level positions within Adobe. The graphics world is changing and Adobe, I think, realizes that there is money to be made in providing the ability, through InDesign, to break into the digital publishing market and not rely solely on photographers using Photoshop and Lightroom with beginners concentrating on Elements. As a heavy user of Adobe products and three of the major plugin suites for Photoshop as well as Corel Painter, the subscription scheme is very welcome - I wish Corel would also go to a subscription scheme. It is fairly obvious that sales of Corel Painter 12 were not going that well as they recently offered the upgrade at a greatly reduced price. I also believe the writing is on the wall for hard copy training books as both Peachpit and Safari are offering a wide range of training material for a subscription price of slightly less than $20 per month. Electronic delivery of everything is a technology that has, in my opinion great legs because of the constantly increasing cost of producing hard copy documentation is pricing it out of the market. I was a hardware and software technical writer for many years and the switch to electronic documentation and online help was well underway years before I retired in 2005 due to printing and distribution costs associated with hard copy documentation. So, here is vote for Adobe's current course from a heavy user of their products. You also need to upgrade this forum application as it seems that I can type much faster than this application can capture my input. It is very unnerving that the screen is several words behind what I am currently typing.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby HaraldHeim » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:06 pm

No one is complaining that Adobe is offering the Creative Cloud subscription. I know that it is a great offer for professional people who need more than two Adobe applications and always want to have the latest versions of them.

The problem is that Adobe is making the subscription model mandatory for anyone. So for a large group of users it means a more or less heavy increase in price. Additionally there are some other disadvantages, e.g. no access to the software once you do not or cannot pay the monthly fee anymore, which did not exist with the old perpetual licenses.

Corel is already offering a subscription, but it also offers perpetual licenses. Microsoft does the same. So you can only conclude that Adobe is (ab)using its almost monopolistic position to force a sales model on users that they do not want.

The text box is created and managed by your browser, so there must a be a problem with it if you can only type slow.

mldavis2
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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby mldavis2 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:29 am

Admittedly an old topic but it is an ongoing source of frustration, irritation and outright anger among non-professional hobbyists without deep pockets. I am eager to hear customer reactions at the meetings this week. I suspect they may be booed from the stage by many. My view is this:

With the subscription model it now would cost me (after the first year teaser rate of $10/month) $240/year to maintain an active subscription to Photoshop CC alone. In the past, I had the option of evaluating new release upgrades and determine if they merited the additional cost - usually around $200 every two years. For Photoshop-only users, the price has more than doubled. Nice that they give corporations a big cost break while doubling cost to the little guys that were the backbone of the Photoshop user base.

With the subscription model, Adobe has put itself in the driver's seat. Rate increases are at the whim of Adobe and of course will increase with inflation and other Adobe budgetary needs, desires and egregious bonus requirements.

With the subscription model, there is no choice but to pay and pay and pay. Once you edit files using any of the new CC features, they immediately become unreadable in previous versions of Photoshop and other editors in their Adobe PSD format. Adobe has a direct funnel on your bank account in perpetuity until you die or run out of money.

With the subscription model, we are asked to pay up front for promised new "features" that may or may not appear and may or may not be of any interest or value to established workflows. Photoshop is a mature product and, as such, has very little room for improvement aside from bug fixing and adjustments to new operating systems and graphics cards. It is blatantly obvious that Adobe is struggling to come up with "gotta have" features that encourage upgrading, so they force not only mandatory upgrades but ask you to pay in advance for unknown improvements. No longer can we evaluate the product in terms of its cost/value balance to us and determine if the next version is worth the cost. No longer does Adobe have to provide features worthy of the subscription fees so expect them to lay off a few hundred programmers as the dust settles.

I am a retired hobbyist on a retirement income. I have no use for any other Adobe CC products outside of Photoshop. I have determined that not only is CC not worth the cost, but I have boycotted Adobe products from here on unless or until they can provide value equal to cost for me. I am sticking with CS6 (I have upgraded every version since 4.0) and when that is no longer a viable editing platform, I am sure other software manufacturers will take advantage of the groundswell of photographer and hobbyist outrage and provide a suitable alternative. I have purchased thousands of dollars of software over the years, most of it I still access from time to time. If I had been paying subscription fees for everything installed on my computers for the past 40 years, I'd be on welfare and food stamps.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby DDR » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:54 am

When Photoshop CC was issued, I also received an advertisement (as a Photoshop owner). The manager told, in the advertisement, that Photoshop CC and Creative Cloud in general target the making the products to be more accessible to the users, and also the fighting against the pirate copies of Adobe products.

I do not discuss the policy provided by Adobe. I only tell you my own observation. So, when Lightroom costed $300, I knew only a minorest number of persons who purchased it in Russia. Once Lightroom 4 was issued for $149, all people immediately bought it. Also the advantage is that commencing in Lightroom 4, no credit card is needed to purchase in Russia, Adobe products can be paid by cash at any cellphone store then download via Adobe download center. Elements 11 is on sale in Adobe Russia for only $79.99 (the price drops down from $129, then $99, now -- $79). See http://store.adobe.ru/catalog/program.php?ID=135909. This is the true path for the fighting against the pirate copies, and for the mass shopping which is now observed in Russia. Elements 11 is the "hit of hits" for now.

Most people in Russia tell that they would purchase Photoshop if Adobe would lower the price twicely, to $400. Also, they like to have a software product for long term use, for a decade (for example). But they would never pay for the subscription as something that they do not own. This is the human psychology. Also, no one person of the amateur photographers will pay $20/month for Photoshop CC used on occasion.

My prognosis therefore is that only professional photographers will purchase CC Cloud, not the amateurs (who are the majority of the Adobe product users). And also, no one will subscribe CC Cloud products in Russia. People will use the "solid rock" old versions of Photoshop, then wait until the financial crash of the "Cloud policy" will turn Adobe to the "old rail". Only the lowering of the price for Photoshop could resolve the "pirate problem" thus making a huge new income to the Adobe wallet. Lightroom 4 and Elements 11 manifest this simplest truth in clear. If the managers of Adobe do not see this simplest fact, they only imitate their job to show how they are good. Nothing common with the real development in the field of finances.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby chris_n » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:21 pm

All of this discussion about pricing; comparing the CC forced upgrade rental model vs a perpetual license version is a really a diversion from the real fatal problems for the user. Users talk about 12 month or 24 month comparisons. Think about the next 10 or 20 years.

The first time you create a file in CC, you can never go back; they can't be opened in CS6. In order to work on your files, you must continue to pay your CC rent... Forever!

You will have 10's of thousands of Photoshop, After Effects, Premiere, Illustrator files, that, if you're late on your rent, you can't work on.

From the Adobe CC Q & A:
"WHAT HAPPENS IF I DECIDE TO STOP MY MEMBERSHIP?
You will no longer have access to the Creative Cloud desktop applications or most of the services that are components of a Creative Cloud membership."

How much will the CC monthly rental be in 5 years? 10 years? $100, $150? Nobody knows.

In 5 years you might want to switch to a new, more modern node based photo editing program, but you'll still continue to pay Adobe for the privilege of using all of the files you created in CC, indefinitely.

In 10 years, you're still paying and paying. Who will own Adobe? Google (Just bought Nik), Microsoft (think Softimage)???, Apple (think Shake)? Will they simplify the programs for a larger audience (Final cut)? Discontinue some of the programs? Remember, when they go away, you will have no ability to run the programs.

Will you even have access to your files in 20 years? Will there even be programs to open the millions of photos and files?

Adobe CC software is a special case; when a software company stops supporting a product, you have a perpetual licensed copy of the software on your computer and can continue to work on your files. With CC, your software will no longer function.

The history of computers is littered with the changes, falls and failures of successful companies and top products, but that's what you're betting your professional life on.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby HaraldHeim » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:51 pm

mldavis2: Very good points you are making. Only one correction: PSD files that make use of CC feature do not become unreadable in older Photoshop version. Only the new CC features are not used. On the other hand Adobe might decide in future that the PSD format will be incompatible with older Photoshop version.

DDR: I agree that Adobe would earn more money in certain countries, e.g. Russian, if they would offer a perpetual license for a reduced price. I am not so sure about western countries, where they may loose money with such a strategy, but it may also work out.

chris_n: As I wrote above, it is possible to open PSD files created with Photoshop CC in older Photoshop versions! But you are right that the subscription model potentially threatens access to your files in the long run. On the other hand there are already other image editing applications that open PSD files including all of its layers. Of course, they do not support all Photoshop features, but at least you would not need to begin from scratch again. In future more and more non-Adobe application will support PSD files and offer more and more of the PSD features needed.

mldavis2
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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby mldavis2 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:58 pm

The subscription model was announced a few months ago and I still haven't cooled off, but I don't want this to be a rant, either, just a list of problems with the new model and product.

Thanks, Harold, for the clarification. However the net effect of opening PSD files from CC in CSx is that you would get some of the editing but lose some which would send me right back to the original to start over again. If one did not use the new CC features it would seem to work. But then if I did not use or need CC features, why would I pay an unending subscription fee for them and why would I be using CC instead of CSx?

As I mentioned, there is very little "new" in Photoshop CC. They have tweaked the mobile connectivity by buying out another company and it's technology for that. They have added some grid adjustment features and finally introduced a motion blur filter that they have been working on for ages. (Note that decent photographers hold their cameras still when taking pictures so would have no need of it.)

The other factor that puts many of us in a bind is the wealth of 3rd party information, books and tutorials based on Photoshop. Paint Shop Pro and others have nearly nothing by comparison. One of my favorite plug-ins is Curvemeister by Mike Russell who is looking into trying to code a version for Gimp or other platforms in the wake of defections from Photoshop, and according to Mike, it is unclear if he will continue to support the CC model with Curvemeister.

Additionally, my favorite Photoshop author is Dan Margulis who is a master of color correction, and all of his books and concepts are built around Photoshop menus and would take a lot of "translation" to port the information to other editors. Some of his correction "moves" may well be difficult if not impossible outside of the Photoshop environment. Alas, Dan has retired and will not likely write additional books for other platforms.

I will not be using Lightroom or Elements for several reasons. Lightroom is a high-volume quick-fix overlay editor similar to the Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) included with Photoshop. It is not a pixel editor. Elements lacks all the color spaces of Photoshop (although Curvemeister does work with it to provide RGB, CMYK, LAB, and HSB) and is a crippled, dumbed-down version of Photoshop lacking many features. Using both for overlay and then pixel editing would be tedious moving images back and forth, but the main reason I wouldn't consider using them is because I'd have to purchase them both from Adobe, which I will not do. I'm voting with my wallet and boycotting Adobe for their unfair corporate pricing at the expense of the single program users who are effectively being asked to pay for the corporate discounts. Just a matter of principle.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby chris_n » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:09 pm

Good points, but do you really think PS CC files will be able to be opened in PS6 in 2 years, I don’t think so:

A major point of the CC forced upgrade model is that Adobe only has to support one version: CC. I've talked to Adobe developers and programmers and the’re so happy not to have to deal with any software that’s not current. I think backwards compatibly will stop soon after PS6 goes off the market.

As far as opening PS files in other photo editors; have you ever tried it? Open a PS file in PaintShop Pro X6 or Gimp (8 bit color only) with raw conversions, layers, masks, liquify... and you’ll find it’s far easier just to start over in the new app. Just don’t start with CC in the first place, use software that has a perpetual license.

And what about the other Adobe apps; After Effects, Illustrator, Premiere, etc. What about the web sites you created in Dreamweaver? What program will open those files?

The irony is that Adobe’s greedy CC model is it opened up the door to real competition, not only in the sub $100 market, but, hopefully to some modern high-end node based photo editors. Also, the thought that cc will stop piracy was laughable; It was cracked the first day and it’s high cost will drive more people to use illegal copies.

On another note: It is to the great credit of companies like The Plugin Site that help the industry by continuing to support plug ins for alternate hosts. Plug ins add high-end features to the simplest photo editors. Any feature that PS comes up with in the future, the’ll be a plug in the that!

Personally, I’d love to see all plug ins also available as standalone programs for simplified compatibly and workflow.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby HaraldHeim » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:29 pm

mldavis2: I totally agree. I am trying to make Photoshop Elements a better alternative to Photoshop with my ElementsXXL product. ElementsXXL's Softproof feature lets you see how the image looks in CMYK, so I think it is already a good alternative to the CMYK mode in Photoshop. Still, the biggest limitation of Photoshop Elements is the missing support of layers in 16-bit mode. I plan to address this problem in the upcoming ElementXXL 2 with a workaround.

chris_n: Although the UI of newer Dreamweaver versions was improved more and more, I still prefer to use the old MX version, because some features were removed from newer versions and the html preview seems to get less reliable with newer versions.
Although there are many plugin alternatives to features of newer Photoshop version, not all of them are covered by plugins. Additionally some plugins are less convenient to use, because e.g. it is not possible to tightly integrate them into Photoshop as it can be done with a built-in feature. But considering the price increase of Photoshop CC, they are certainly worthwhile investments in many cases.
As long as Adobe is holding up the subscription model it makes sense for The Plugin Site to create products that bring Photoshop CC features to older Photoshop versions.

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Re: ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Postby debiannj » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:53 pm

I won't upgrade to CC. I have CS 6, and if I can't access it later, I'll use another product. I hope they discover that there are hobbyists AND professionals who dislike their current models and who are looking for alternatives once CS 6 ceases to be an option.

I have a friend who is a professional graphic artist with her own company. She's been using Photoshop and other adobe products since the beginning of the Creative Suite era and before when it was just Photoshop. When the CC first came out, she was enthusiastic and quickly upgraded to it. Her enthusiasm ended abruptly. Every single time there was an upgrade, her workspace changed, and she lost work. She called tech support; she tried everything. She was on the phone for 5 hours with Adobe tech support which nearly destroyed her MacBook - she had to go to Apple later to get it fixed because they messed it up so bad. She still lost her work AND her workspace. Just to be able to keep her sanity, she ordered the CS6 disk from the company that handled Adobe's after market. What she got was a blank disk she paid over $700 for. Before she was done, she was upset, and so was the Attorney General in Arizona because they were looking into that company for fraudulently handling licenses. Adobe was involved... and it wasn't looking good. I don't know how it was resolved, but she's using CS6 on a disk, and I don't know what's going to happen when it's no longer viable.

Me, I bought CS6 and I don't want to be forced into the cloud. What's worse, it's getting other companies to see that they TOO can make money ripping people off like Adobe is doing. I'm already seeing Microsoft's Office products looking at that type of platform,


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